[E235] When You’re New to Parenting through Adoption & Foster Care

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. To the Empowered to Connect podcast where we come together to discuss a healing centered approach to engagement and well being for ourselves, our families and our communities. Hey everyone, I'm back with the gang today. Tana and Becca and myself, Jesse Ferris, are happy to talk a little bit about what if you are about to receive your very first placement or when you're new to adoptive foster care, kinship parenting. And y', all, I was thinking about this because we, we are getting ready to go watch a movie that is not really in my general genre of movies that I tend to choose. It's Project Hail Mary, full transparency. I am only going just to watch Ryan Gosling for three hours. Some of y' all are going to hear that and feel really deeply disappointed in me. And some of y' all will be like, same Jesse. Um, but I've started listening to the book on audiobook, like rapidly before I go see this movie. And what it's reminding me of is being a brand new adoptive parent like this guy to, to give you the premise, wakes up and he doesn't know where he is. He doesn't know the context of what's happening. Like, he's completely disoriented. And so far I'm not very. I'm only like chapter five, so don't worry, I'm not ruining anything for anyone. He's trying to figure out what's going on. Where is he? He's figured out he's like on a, on a spaceship, you know, And I feel a little bit like my adoptive parenting experience was like that. Like, I thought something and then when I got into it, I, I became like that character on Project Hail Mary where I'm like, what is happening? Where am I? What am I experiencing? Who am I? So I thought I would just kick that off. Like, let's talk a little bit about what, what we're bringing to this conversation today and what that might have felt like for you guys before we jump into maybe some wisdom that we can share with our listeners. [00:02:17] Speaker B: Well, first off, I'm a little bit jealous that you're listening to the audio because I am on the wait list for it to come available through the audio library app. And I got late to the game. I wish I would have put it in my hold queue four months ago. And now it's so far off. And I do the library audio and then I also have my few treasured audible credits. When do I pull the lever and just use the credit to do I pull the leverage? [00:02:47] Speaker A: I was like, oh, 233 people waiting on 15 copies. [00:02:50] Speaker B: That's it. That's exactly where I am. So thank you for giving me maybe a little bit of boost to just use the audible credit and jump on in. So that's funny. I didn't know that was that you were in the middle of it, but maybe I'll join you there. But I've definitely joined you on the journey of oh my goodness, what are we doing in previous I joined you. I feel like actually we've all synced up there. So yeah. What a fun conversation. I think I wish I had had a conversation like this to listen to if I could hit rewind, you know, coulda, shoulda, woulda to my younger pre parenting self. I wish I had had just some sisters along the journey that could help me with wisdom and insight. Just a little bit of, hey, this might be something you experience or this might be something you can relate to. A little bit of a heads up. So. So that I'm going in a little bit more aware of what might happen. But that wasn't our experience. We just literally jumped in. I remember our very first kiddo came to us. We were in South Korea as brand new parents and we had met him just a few minutes and we took custody and got in a taxi and drove away. And we're like, oh my gosh, do these people actually think we can parent? Do they actually believe in us? Do we believe in ourselves? There was no car seat, there was no buckle. We're in a taxi, we go straight to a hotel and we get on an airplane within 12 hours to come home. Like we started our parenting journey on an airplane. No days to bond, so maybe I do feel like Hail Mary, man. And you woke up to parenting on an airplane, so yeah. [00:04:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:39] Speaker B: Anyway, it's been a ride, that's for sure. What about you, Becca? [00:04:44] Speaker C: Oh, man. I want to briefly share three different like, oh my gosh, what's happening? Where am I in space moments. The first one was for our family and there's lots of. There's lots of personal decisions involved with adoption. Like before you even go that route, you have to decide international, domestic, through the state or through private. There's like lots of decisions along the way and we could unpack those at a later time. But I'm just naming I those of you listening. I hear you. You got to where you are the way that your family needed to. Our family went through private adoption agency. So the first. Whoa, what's happening Was when we started to get emails from our agency that was like very Brief descriptors like, baby due in August, baby boy, mom wants to be, have an open adoption or something like that. So the first thing that happened for my husband and I was like, whoa, we talked about this, we prayed about it, we did all the applications, we did all the home study visiting, and now we're getting emails and it's like, oh, these are like real people. Like, this is really. [00:05:52] Speaker B: These are real babies. These are real babies. [00:05:55] Speaker C: And you start picturing and bless Jesse and Tana, because at the time I was working full time with etc. And every time you get an email, you're like, like, okay, well, if the baby was born on this day, then I would take my leave on this day. And I'm not kidding, you guys. They had to listen to probably hundreds of like, processing of if this happens now, then this is how we would do this. And. And so the way my brain works, obviously lots of overthinking and anxiety, but that was the first whoa, what's happening? Moment. And in that situation, you have to hold things with such an open hand because there's so many variables you don't know. There's so many things you don't know. You don't know the other families that are waiting. You don't know what the biological family is ultimately going to decide to do. And so you just have to kind of prayerfully be open at all times, but also open to, hey, this family found an aunt or a grandparent. And that's beautiful because they get to stay with their biological family, which is incredible. So there's that. There was. Anyways, there was a lot of that season. And then when we became parents, I've shared before on the podcast, I did not at all expect it to be in the nicu. That was not even really on my radar as, like a possibility for us. I don't. Just hadn't really thought about it. And so then it was parenting with a lot of professionals teaching you how to change a diaper for a baby that small instead of just doing it at home or whatever it is. And then we made it through months and months of that. And then she was just in our house. And that was my taxi moment. Tana of like, oh, we just get to drive away. [00:07:26] Speaker B: I remember talking to you that night. You're like, I don't know what is happening, but she is home and there are no nurses. [00:07:33] Speaker C: Yeah, no one's telling, like, there's no monitors. She's been on a monitor 247 and [00:07:38] Speaker B: they need to beep. [00:07:39] Speaker C: They unplugged her, like, minutes before she got in the car. So it was like going from, like, constant, I want to say surveillance, but not in a bad way, in a positive way, monitoring and surveillance and, like, support. And at a moment's notice, you could have a swarm of professionals who can tell you everything. And then it's like, wow, we're just home. And I don't think Rico and I slept at all that night. And it was just this moment of, wow, like, we're parents. And then obviously there's different ages. Kids come to families through adoption and foster care. So we had the newborn experience. Other people welcome kids at all different ages and stages and developmental things. And so now, you know, year and a half in. Yeah, in some ways it's exactly what I thought it would be. And in some ways it's. You can't prepare for it until you're in it. So it's just that both. And like, it really is. It really is just this, like, okay, we're in uncharted territories. What's going to happen now? So those are my three that pop out when you ask that question, Jesse. [00:08:42] Speaker A: I remember. So I'll, I'll say all three of us are coming to this conversation through adoption. But both personally and professionally, we've worked with friends and people through our work at etc that have given us quite a lot of insight into what. What the foster care journey is like. And even some close friends we've walked with that have been on that journey. And so if you're listening to this and you're like, oh, I'm tuning out. It's infant adoption. It even is like any adoption, any foster care placement, any kinship placement is going to be completely unique. That child is completely unique. You're unique. The season in which it's happening is unique. And so we'll just name that. Like, we can bring our. We collectively listeners and all of us bring our collective unique experiences to this. But we think that there are some threads we can pull on that are maybe some things to think about if you're waiting on a first placement as almost perspective. Yeah, I'm reaching for that, for that name for a waiting parent either through foster care or adoption or if you're brand new kind of to this, to this thing called adoptive foster care, kinship [00:10:09] Speaker B: parenting, maybe even those that are seasoned parents biologically and are in a scenario where they're adding to their family not for the first time, like all of like, Jesse, you could talk about where you started parenting. So maybe you've been parenting, but you're Parenting anew or afresh with a different layer. Right. So I think even that. How many families have we talked to? All of us became moms first through adoption. But there have been so many families that we've walked with that have shared with us about, man, I've been seasoned parents and I thought I knew parenting. And I'm coming to you because this is a whole new deal and I want to unlearn and relearn something new. So I maybe would even layer that in too. Right. Like you can be parenting and now parenting in a different way because we were adoptive parents and then we did a few safe families placements. I don't know if you've heard of safe families, but that's when you walk with a family in a short period of time with a voluntary placement where you're supporting them so that they can keep their kiddos or kiddos not going to go into care. So I've had some scenarios where I was welcoming a teenager into our home half of a week every week for a year to just support a family. So there are lots of different ways that we can parent. But I do. To echo what you said, Jesse, some of these things are just sort of fundamentally true in all of those different, nuanced, layered seasons of parenting. Right. So it's just good to talk about, like, the things that maybe we didn't know that we might be experiencing before we did. So I'm excited to just name some of those and share some of our own lived experience, both personally and then also getting to bear witness to those with the other families that we've walked alongside. [00:11:59] Speaker A: Yep. If you are already on this journey, then hopefully you'll feel validated and have some amens. And I remember that as we're talking through these. And if you're a waiting parent for a. For your first placement, then here's some things to think about as you're. As you're in the waiting. And speaking of which, I am. Becca kind of talked about her way of preparing, which was like lots of timelines and plans. And I love you, Becca. Mine is like, I'm going to learn everything that I need. I'm going to become an expert on this topic. And that's kind of where I put my anxiety during the preparation stage. And I will just like, absorb as much as I can. But the problem is you can know all you can know, but you don't know what you know until you experience it to some extent. So I will say I'm both of. We have two international placements in our family. And that that is how I became a mom. And that's its own. There are challenges either way. If you've been parenting biological children and then come to adoption or foster care care, you know, your child is not a blank slate. You're not a blank slate. You have all those parenting experiences. On the flip side, it's such a strange experience to be like, hello, nice to meet you. I am your mother now. It's like, my name is Mom. So I became a parent for the first time. Well, first I met our child. We met our child together in Ethiopia, and then we had to leave for a month while they started getting her paperwork ready because the laws had changed so much by then that you had to take two trips to Ethiopia. So we arrived for our court date and then we had to leave that child, which was extremely hard. And then I came back in country before the visa was even ready because I was a new expert and I was ready to take custody of that child and country, which I did have legal ability to. I just couldn't bring her to the US Yet. And Nick didn't have the vacation time to be able to do that. So I was parenting. I brought my mother with me in Ethiopia. I've shared this before on the podcast, and that was a weird experience to be. Both Nick and I knew what we knew, but then I was experiencing something that he wasn't experiencing yet. [00:14:38] Speaker B: You got to start practicing first. [00:14:39] Speaker A: Yes. And that was a weird thing too. [00:14:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:44] Speaker A: So anyways, without further ado, let's kind of pull some of these common threads that we would love to just give you to think about or reminisce upon. And I think I want to start with this idea of a honeymoon period, because that does happen with placements. And so who wants to talk about that first? I think I would say the honeymoon will end would be the way that I'm going to introduce that. Or for some of you, that honeymoon may never start. So who wants to jump on that one first? [00:15:21] Speaker B: When I think about honeymoon, I feel so many thoughts and feelings come up for me because the very first one that comes up is I'm sometimes worried when I hear a family talk about maybe how flexible or easygoing or laid back or free to run into church, nursery or kiddos not having any issues. Sometimes if I'm talking with a family that has brought home a new kiddo, toddler, or older, that sort of age range, and they just talk about how easy it has been or how easy the kiddo is, what's Happening inside of me is oh no, not oh, congratulations. It's typically an oh no. And I think the oh no has probably got two parts to it. And one is, please be ready and advocating for your kiddo to actually have voice and choice and opinion and struggle. Like, I hope that your taking care of them in such a way that it's okay for them to not be okay. Because I'm mostly concerned that the child isn't their true self just yet, that they're masking, they're in a stress response, a heightened, prolonged period of fawning. [00:16:49] Speaker C: Right. [00:16:50] Speaker B: If we think about those stress responses, the kiddo isn't actually calm and regulated on the inside. So I don't know how I feel about honeymoon because I don't actually think that there, there is one. I think that it's just a kiddo that might be a fawn stress response that's just hanging out for a while. So I think all new kids are in stress and all new parents are in stress. It's just a matter of how our stress responses show up. [00:17:21] Speaker A: I love that you've kind of come through the front door and addressed that. And let's pull on like honeymoon obviously is coming from this idea of like marriage and you're in love and you get married and you go off, off on the trip, the honeymoon. And which in its own thing is funny. We just celebrated 20 years of marriage. So we've been talking a lot about when we first got married. Our honeymoon was a disaster. So it was a little like trial by fire for us, but just that idea. And I think about the root of this really that we're talking about is attachment. Right. So even if you were to give birth to a biological child and you have those, those early years where you're. It's probably really hard. I've heard the first six weeks are really hard. And you feel like you've just got to come out of that tunnel of sleep deprivation and what is happening. But something's happening during that period where you're. You're building that affirmative. You're building that connection and attachment and you're meeting the needs that are relentless. And I think in both parenting and marriage, there's that moment, like, I do remember in our first year of marriage being like, I hate the way you use this toothpaste tube. I really hate it. I need to talk about that with somebody, you know, or, or just all of the arguments we would get in about things because the lovey dovey ness had fallen away and we were finally feeling Safer with each other. Right? Safer to share our true opinions. So when you talk about that, Tana, I'm doing a long lead up, but I'm thinking about those time periods, or you think about a biological child reaching that stage where inevitably they're going to feel free to begin trying out the word no. Right. [00:19:26] Speaker B: Which is actually a sign of secure attachment. [00:19:29] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:29] Speaker B: Anytime you bring it to attachment. That's right. That pushback is security. So if there's none of that, then that is a signal. That's my. Oh, no. If there's no. I remember the first time one of our kids got up in the middle of the night and walked into the den and said, I can't go to sleep. Can I have a drink of water? And this was not a moment where we're like, ugh, get back in bed. We high fived, they feel safe enough to get out of their bed and negotiate a need and ask for something that they have not asked for yet. So the honeymoon word is such a tricky thing. I appreciate you bringing it back to attachment, Jesse, because I think something that came up for me when you were talking was what if the love isn't coming for us? [00:20:16] Speaker A: Right. [00:20:17] Speaker B: As the parent or caregiver, maybe you expect all of these love and affection and connection and attachment stuff to be coming up for you because quote unquote, there is this new parenting honeymoon moment. And what if that isn't happening? What does that mean? Because that is so real. And that does not mean that you are a bad mom or dad. That does not mean you are a bad parent or caregiver. It means that human attachment is complex and dynamic and you have your own and they have their own and it takes time. So if it isn't coming for you, that does not mean that there is something fundamentally wrong with you. I mean, I'm six sweet, precious human beings into permanent adoption scenarios. Every single one of my personal, like, lovey dovey attachment relationships was so different with each one of my kids because it is a dynamic, didactic dual relationship between two people. And sometimes that is sticky and wonky, sometimes it doesn't come easy. [00:21:24] Speaker C: I think something that's been helpful with the way that we talk about babies is it's a lot about, like, stages. Like, oh, you're in the teething stage. Oh, you're in the this stage. And I think if I can zoom out, like, away from the babies, I think that we're better prepared for parenting if we realize that it's all stages. And some of those stages are going to be years, and some of them are going to be weeks, and some of them are going to be hard, and some of them are going to be easy. And so I think when I'm. When I'm listening to both of you guys kind of process this idea, the families we've walked with over the years who are able to weather the storms better are the ones who aren't surprised that there's going to be storms. And so I think that that's a little bit what you're saying, Jesse, of, like, if you're expecting this, beautiful, amazing, and Tana's talking about the love, feelings, and connection that might happen when that kiddo is 26. Like, you might have that blossoming. Wow, you're such an incredible human moment at 26. You might not have it at 13 or. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's going to be so variable, kid by kid, relationship by relationship. Wouldn't it be nice if humans were not so complicated? Like, wouldn't that just be nice and easy? But we are. We're so complicated. And the parenting relationship is already complicated for all humans. When you add in adoption or foster care, that. That creates additional layers. It just does. So you're not just bonding with a. With a child, which can be hard for biological parents also, let's just say. But when you add in adoption and foster care, it requires the breaking of one bond and the forming of a new bond. Whether the kid is at, like, an age where they know that, whether they're tiny, whether they can feel it biologically, whether they know it and they're telling you, you're not my real mom. Like, whatever is happening consciously, it's just that that is true. The bond is breaking and then a new one is forming. And so, yeah, I really appreciate you asking it, Jesse. And I think if you're in a really, really sweet season, soak it up and enjoy it and love it. And if you're not in a sweet season, it's a season, you know, I think we do a lot of, like, doom and gloom. Like, it will be like this forever. Kids change so much. I mean, just think about. I am spending a little bit of time with middle schoolers right now in a different setting. And it's just funny to think back and be like, my sixth grade self was a different person than my eighth grade self because I did so much like, trying on identities and trying new things, and that's without the context of adoption and foster care. So anyways, I'm talking too much now, but you Hear what I'm saying. I appreciate what both of you guys brought. When you think about relationships here, I [00:24:27] Speaker A: want to pull forward two things that I'm hearing us from this conversation. Talk about when we talk about, you know, when the placement has just occurred, which is, I really appreciated, Tana, when you were saying that love that you maybe experienced in other relationships right at first and that drove you to make commitments or that were kind of baked in, you may not feel that right at first. I think that's what I was naming when I said it's so peculiar to introduce yourself of like, hi, I'm mom. You know, like, it was the, like, I'm now supposed to meet your needs. You are very cute. I think I love you, but I don't have a context with you yet, and you don't have a context with me. And building that takes time. So I appreciate you naming that and I also appreciate you naming every single placement through adoption, foster care, we're even going to say kinship care. There are stress responses happening 100% of the time. They will look different in a completely wide range of behaviors. And that's going to be happening for you, too. So I appreciated you naming that of like, wow, those actually, you know, if we were to say honeymoon, just in terms of like, the first months of your relationship with a new placement, whatever that looks like, we've got to assume that child is experiencing stress and responding instinctually in those ways, and we can, we can look under the surface of those behaviors to kind of, I guess maybe say we're going to be curious about what we're seeing, whether it looks compliant or whether it looks like misbehavior or. [00:26:22] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:24] Speaker A: What advice would you guys give, especially in terms of those things? [00:26:28] Speaker B: I'm like, high fiving the idea of stages and seasons. Right. Like, y' all know that's one of my favorite things I was thinking back to. I'm debating saying it because inevitably a listener's gonna be like, can you please give me that research article? So I cannot. I cannot remember. But you just gotta trust me, trust my old brain. That early, early on, when we were starting to really just get exposed to, etcetera, There was an article quoted in some paper, okay. That talked about how one of the highest predictors for placement success in adoption of foster care was actually the flexibility of the parent and caregiver. Not the trauma history, not the experience of the child, not how old they were, not their personality, not their attachment cycles or behaviors or patterns. It was the flexibility the parent and caregiver was the most like, that is what showed success of placement. And that is exactly what you said, the way you said it, Becca. The ability to ride the wave of stages and seasons with a larger view that this will not always be this way. I mean, this is a silly example, but one of our kiddos, because of medical needs, like slept with us for like a decade and still needed like bathroom support for like a long time. And I just remember laughing, being like, I just hope they don't go to college still needing these things because I had a long view of seasons. I mean, as my friends, I think y' all would know that about me. Again, this is a little bit the gift of hindsight and just having been doing this for a while, but like, it's just gonna be a season. It will come and go. Don't lose yourself in the middle of it. So my advice is like, don't lose yourself. Don't be too hard on yourself. Don't judge yourself too harshly. Don't be surprised that you might be somebody you didn't recognize or don't particularly aren't particularly proud of. If you're going through a difficult mom, going to be parts of you that you didn't know were up underneath there because you're a human person and you're going to have anger and guilt and shame and you're going to feel in over your head at times. You're going to feel like you're swimming out in the ocean alone. And that is just human. And you know what? The season will change for you too. So just don't lose yourself. Would be maybe my biggest bit of encouragement through the different waves, whatever the honeymoon phase is or is not. And then, you know, the seven year itch that you have in marriage, like, that's a season. So just, just take it, take it with a grain of salt, you know, ride the wave. That would be my encouragement, I think, [00:29:12] Speaker C: you know, people come to parenting this way at different times. But because it was my first experience parenting, I think parent, I never thought of myself as a selfish person. And then I didn't sleep for months and all of a sudden I would lose it if something was interrupting my sleep. So it's like I made it as long as I made it. And then I realized, wow, I'm really selfish. And I think, you know, and I'm not. So I think a lot of parents realize either their selfish tendencies or probably more common, their needs. They realize that they have needs. And so I think my biggest encouragement would be you maybe can't know this until you're in it. So I don't know that I could have thought ahead with all my spreadsheets and timelines. I don't know that I could have processed this in advance. You know, I want to like, process things before they happen so I don't have to process them in the moment. And that's just not life. But if you can give yourself a lot of self compassion for when those things rise up in you and just realize like, people do the best they can and we, we see things about ourselves that we aren't always proud of. But if we can avoid those shame spirals, that would be my encouragement. If you find yourself like, spiraling into guilt and shame or, man, I did not expect this and I thought I would be better at xyz. I hope you'll give yourself self compassion. I hope you'll surround yourself with people that can speak the truth to you in those hard moments. And I hope you can figure out what self care means season by season. I think it's easy to think about it as like this, like black and white list of if you're doing these things, you're great. But you know, I've shared on the podcast before, a huge part of my husband and I's marriage has been figuring out our physical health. And a huge part of self care for him in this season has been finding workout schedules that work. And we've had to adjust that about every two to three months. We've had to find a different, okay, let's try this gym because it has these hours. Okay, let's try that because it has these hours. So I know that's really, really practical, but it's those kinds of conversations that I hope you can have. And if you feel yourself shame spiraling, please stop be kind to yourself. You're doing the best that you can. [00:31:38] Speaker A: I appreciate almost hearing the trajectory of that process for you because you started with like, I'm a selfish person. And especially if you talk about a shame spiral. How about that? Right? Like, but then naming that, I think parenthood and sharing our time and energy with other people in our family and in our home and house and personal lives, it then divides the time that we have to meet our own needs. And that's not selfish. I think before we are having to divide that time, we're not being thoughtful and thinking explicitly about how we were getting those needs met. Right. Because it was just happening. Right? So I think I really appreciate you guys pulling on this of like, it's, you're gonna Notice that and give yourself compassion. I loved that piece of advice, Becca of you're gonna experience your own stress. Either just normal first time parenthood or normal parenthood stress of like, oh man, this is 24 7. When am I gonna get my own needs met? And being able to talk about that. And I think there's something I'm hearing underlying this too that I would pull forward as, as my two cents to throw in these early days and minutes and hours and this season that we're riding through. I think I would recommend that your primary task is to build trust all the way around. Like learn how to trust yourself and what you need and how to meet that need. Learn how to trust. If you are partnering with somebody to parent, learn how to develop more trust in that partner so that you have each other's backs and you're building trust with that new human that you've introduced yourself to as their parent. And that takes time. Again, it's not easy. It takes repeated actions of meeting needs over and over and over and over. It even takes the messy part that we would rather leave out of showing our maybe less than stellar behavior to each other and being able to trust that we're still together, we still have each other. And that's part of being a family too. Right? So, yeah, that's a complex one. In those early days. I want to, I want to also ask about this. Even the process of adoption and walking and. Or walking through a foster care system is its own type of traumatic experience. Becca, you nodded to this. Just like the unknown and the waiting and the having to plan. And I, I do remember we have two children and it was night and day adoptions, like one of them. We meticulously planned and timed out when we wanted to be finishing those processes in order to not receive a placement too early, before we were financially ready, you know, like all of these things. And it from start to finish took two years. Our second placement was whirlwind and we were really responding to some medical needs that were emergent. And it ended up being 12 weeks start to finish. And it was very much like project Hail Mary waking up like in another country, holding a child, being like, what? What just happened? This was not in my New Year's resolution this year. So I'm wondering what can we say in terms of like the stress that the process and. Or walking through the system of foster care is introducing into our lives. [00:35:50] Speaker C: Can I. I want to put. So a large part of what I do these days is teach social work students at the graduate and undergraduate level. And so I just want to briefly say one of the things in the United States that's a big deal is reunifying biological families. So the foster care system, by design, by law, is in place for temporary periods where families can get support or resources or things of that nature, get more stable housing or they can get mental health support or like all these different pieces. And so I want to say it's easy to sit in a classroom and go, yes, I am for that. I am for reunification. That's right. And that's good. It's hard to be a foster parent and stay committed to that vision. And so I just want to name the both end of that. You can feel both ways. You can feel very like supportive of biological family reunification. And you can feel very sad and hard. And it can be challenging when you're in a system where the decisions don't always make sense. Sometimes you're sitting in a courtroom and people that have spent zero minutes with the child are making decisions like judges and casas and different people, and you've been living with them for months and you feel. So I just want to name that. You can think something is a good idea and it can still be hard to walk out. And foster care is one of, I think, the most emotionally challenging undertakings that a person can do because you're asked to fully attach and be present and supportive. And you're asked to zoom out, look at the big picture and see the long term solution for this child or this family or what have you. So I just want to say that theory and practice there can get a little bit. You can feel conflicted and I think a lot of people do. Then there's the fact that many of our government systems are complicated bureaucracies. And sometimes the things in there are intentional and they do make sense if you really think about it. And some of it, guys, I'm just going to be honest, doesn't make any sense. And it's just a result of an overloaded system and there's not really good solutions. And so people do the best they can. Parents do the best they can, social workers do the best they can, judges do the best they can. Sometimes the system is messed up and the system is too complicated. So I just want to name if you're feeling that you are not wrong and sometimes the laws aren't right in your state or province or wherever you are. And sometimes so there. So it can feel really dehumanizing when you're stuck in that bureaucracy or that system that can be true of the medical system. If you're parenting a child with complex needs, like, you're trying to get the support that you need and the insurance doesn't want to cover it, and this, that, and the other. So it's, it's all wrapped up in these big systems. And if you can, I just want to encourage you to, like, separate that frustration from your relationship with that child. They didn't create that system. They're caught up in it just as much as you are, or maybe more. And so if you can separate your frustration, like, that has a place and that's valid. But day to day, when you have those moments with the kids in your career, that's important. [00:39:19] Speaker A: I appreciate you saying that. I think. Yes. I also think I've got two teenage daughters now, and it's a funny thing to have. It's a funny thing to have built your family through adoption. Like, our kids don't know any different. The parents in this house don't know any different. Adoption is a part of our everyday life and in reality. And so the conversations that come with that are part of our everyday reality and our norm, especially with a middle school and high school daughter. Now we have these, like, daydreamy conversations where I'll hear them in the back, like, well, I don't want to give birth. I want to adopt because I think it's going to hurt too bad, you know, or they'll be like, I don't want to adopt. I want to. I want my genes going into my child. You know, they're. They're just, like, talking about it objectively, you know, as they're discussing their life plans and dreams as a teenage girl does. And it's, it's really interesting, these thoughts and feelings I have within myself of, like, oh, I think it's hard either way. Like, I think it might hurt in different ways for different reasons. Oh, there's, there's, you know, complex things that go into passing on your genes to a child. And there are complex things of a child coming into your home with a whole nother set of history. You know, it's. Parenting is hard. I remember being surprised with both processes, how different they were, even of it takes so much work to do the paperwork for an international adoption. And I remember Becca talking to you and your husband about it, like, the home study process and how invasive it feels. And you're just, like, laying out all your finances in front of a stranger, and you're having to have somebody come into your home and tell whether you're fit to parent, it just feels so invasive. And then with an international adoption, you're doing all that over again and doing all of the dossier paperwork and the waiting and the pushing and the. Just all of it. It's so much. It's a different kind of laboring and enlarging, I guess, because especially within my first adoption, I was becoming a first time parent and my friends around me were getting pregnant around the same time. So I was comparing it to pregnancy the whole time of like, it's like this. I mean, they're not like each other, but they have their own set of challenges. I just remember in the same way that all that work goes into planning a wedding and then you have to actually have a marriage after that. That's the way that adoption felt to me. Like all this intention and paperwork goes into adoption and at the end of the road you get to parent that kid. And I just remember feeling really weary from the process of both of those things. Our second adoption included like a major organ transplant a year later. So it was like we reached the first checkpoint of, of adopting the child and then we needed to reach the second checkpoint of a life saving surgery. And even then it was like, oh, and now we get to parent this child, you know, so I'm just naming it. I don't have advice yet. I'm still processing that as we're conversing, I think. But what would you add to it, Tana? [00:43:18] Speaker B: My heart and mind are ping ponging a million places. Early on in our parenting journey, the. As a, as a person of faith that was starting our family in, in the church setting, there was a verse that we heard a lot and I'm going to paraphrase it. It's James 1:27 and it talks about like pure and undefiled. Religion is caring for orphans and widows in their distress. [00:43:49] Speaker A: And. [00:43:54] Speaker B: That verse just found some like deep crevices down in my heart and soul. And the way I started sort of thinking about that and settling into that is that. And this is me pontificating and coming up real high. You know, I'm just gonna admit I'm just flying up real high right now. Sometimes that's the only way I can like show up with my feet on the ground. To your point, like get the actual stuff done that needs to get done in the parenting is I have to sort of come up real high. But sort of harking back to, you know, it being in and of its own self, a traumatizing reality to walk out. Foster care, adoption, whether it is Being adjacent or part of a system that's broken and not functioning well, whether it is the labor of love to the act of getting to the kiddo through the paperwork and the process. The vulnerability of sharing your marriage and finances like that in and of itself is just so vulnerable. Then there is the reality of holding and hoping for healthy attachment and relationship. And there's oftentimes grief and loss for just flying up in the middle of all of that. And then if you are not sure of permanency and you are literally gutting yourself for the well being of a child and you have no idea if they get to be your forever, you know what that is? That is distressing. So when I think about that verse, I'm like, it says visit them in their distress. And to me it's like that gives me some place to put some of what is just painful is to enter into a system or a family structure where there is vulnerability and brokenness and need that is just seeping out because they cannot keep their kiddos in their family for any number of reasons. That is distress. So to decide to make a decision which we have six times over forever and multiple times for seasons, we made a cognitive decision as a family and as a couple to step into or beside something that was struggling again, a large mesosystem, a microsystem, a family structure that I would say was in distress. I cannot expect to not have some shrapnel and pain and distress as part of that process. So in some instances I am coming towards a baby or a child or a human that has significant need and I need to come in with my eyes wide open. And this is where I'm like, I'm just going to go way up, I'm just going to decide, I'm going to bear with to some of that distress and it's going to be distressing and I'm not going to come out unscathed. I'm not going to come out, I'm going to get a little emotional, unchanged. And I am so dang grateful for that distress because it has completely changed or not. I'm not grateful for the distress. I'm grateful that I got to bear witness to it and maybe even bear some of it up in partnership with because I am such a completely different person because of that process. But it has. I mean you've got to be serious about your own well being, support yourself, mental health care, supportive friends, honest partnerships. You know, y' all talked about it, Kindness, understanding its seasons. You're a human, you are not unbreakable. You cannot bear it. All you. You do have needs. So just that process of coming up aside hurting people and broken systems to stay in it for the long haul and not like peter out, you know, it is not for the faint of heart. But you are more resilient than you think you are. We have more in us than I think we ever even realize. And sometimes we only see and touch and feel that when we're put up face to face with it. So that that's my little maybe mini sermonette in the middle of it. Like to, to bear witness to it and to visit distress is. Is dang distressing. And we don't have to pretend like it's not. [00:48:32] Speaker C: Yep. [00:48:32] Speaker A: To circle back. So what Becca said, it is. It gets to be both. And for us, we can do both of those things and we can acknowledge that it's both. And I'm even thinking about something we've talked about in our friendship this year. Tana of just all over years and years builds resilience and changes us whether we realize it's happening or not. And yeah, it, it can be. It's not all ugly, it's not all hard. It also is incredibly beautiful and transforming and life changing. I think if I let's. Let's pass forward some advice and I think mine would be you're going to learn how to be an advocate. No matter what situation that you're coming to, you're going to learn how to be an advocate and it's. You're going to do it. You're not going to do it perfectly. You're going to learn through experience, experiencing your child, experiencing the system, experiencing the people within that system. And it's going to look different for each of us. But you're going to learn how to advocate for your child. And I would also encourage you to find an advocate for yourself. Find a friend who is one step ahead of you, who can help you make sense of what's happening in your everyday help make sense of what you're experiencing in the system. Find a great therapist that can help you make sense of yourself and help support you as you're building that resilience and bearing up under some of really difficult circumstances. You're going to learn how to be an advocate and you need to find an advocate. What else would you add in there? Guys, [00:50:31] Speaker C: I think again, give yourself permission. Give yourself permission to feel how it feels. But with the support of community and friends and mentors and mental health care, resist bitterness and resentment. It can be so easy to get so jaded, and it can really take root and it can turn you into somebody that you don't want to be. And so feel your feelings. We talk a lot about how the only way through grief is through grief. And so I think walk into that and grieve it, but don't let it just turn into fuel for a bitterness or cynicism or there's a lot of worlds, and I'll just say Internet groups and people who will feed into bitterness. You can find them. And if you want to find people that will feed into cynicism and bitterness, you can find that. I have not found that to be super helpful for me. And I think what's more helpful is feel the feelings. I was just talking to a friend the other day who was talking about being in a really, really tough season and going to a rage room, and she and her husband went to a rage room and they broke plates and cups and they did something with their emotions, but they didn't let it just fester, if that makes sense. So I think it looks different for every single different person. But find what works for you to channel that. Don't ignore it, don't dismiss it. But also if you try to ignore it, it's just going to fester into cynicism, bitterness, that kind of thing. [00:52:23] Speaker B: My word of advice thinking about this is maybe what I just did, which is I just went high up in big picture. Don't lose sight of the big picture in the middle of the difficult things. I think it's easy to make big, grandiose statements about broken systems and point fingers and get all wrapped up in that. Systems are just people doing jobs, showing up, doing the best they can. Like, systems are just people. I mean, you can say something about some big old mad at, yada, yada, yada. And typically I'm thinking, well, which actual person are you mad at? And can we break it down and think about it in a smaller way? And what kind of support or encouragement can we give to the smallest piece of that system? Because that's actually how systems change. If you're a part of a system and you're lamenting and grieving and angry and angsty about the inefficiencies, there are a lot. The brokenness. There is so much, you know, the whatever to you, like you said, Becca, there's laws that are not. That are not in the best interest of children and families. You know, those are all just stood up by people and they sometimes need to change and like, stepping away and throwing the towel in for the long haul isn't helpful. It's okay to take a break. It's okay, like if you're needing to make changes, make changes. I'm not advocating for you to stay adjacent to a system that's harming you. That is not what I'm advocating for. But I am advocating for us to just have a, I don't know, big picture and understand it. It's. It is. If you believe people really do do the best they can, then that means that system with those people that are currently in it is also doing the best they can. [00:54:26] Speaker A: I think you're. [00:54:27] Speaker B: They typically need help. [00:54:29] Speaker A: I think your zoom out recommendation is now two times over. We've said recognize that this is seasons and stages and zoom out and look at the big picture and anyways, I appreciate that full transparency, guys. There are like six other things we could talk about when we talk about being new to adoptive and foster parenting. Maybe we'll do another part two sometime. But. But for now, as we wrap up this episode, I'd love. I hope we've done a good job of talking and validating. Talking about validating the things that are exciting and the things that are hard. I hope that you don't feel like we have jarred you into something that you are now feeling afraid of. So I definitely want to leave you with hope as we finish this episode. And what would you guys, what, what message of hope would you give to waiting parents or parents experiencing their first placement? [00:55:37] Speaker C: Isn't it such a gift to be able to pour life into a little person? Whether that's forever, whether that's for 10 minutes, whether that's for a weekend, whether that's for two years. I think that is such an honor to get to be part of somebody's story that way. So that's the hope I would leave you with is just. Man, what an honor to step into somebody's world and to be a safe adult for them. I'm getting teary eyed thinking about it. But just it's so, so important that our kids and young people have safe adults. So if you are doing your best to be a safe adult, keep going. [00:56:21] Speaker B: I would maybe echo, echo that the people in the system and the struggling families are worth, are worth, are worth it. And they will bless you, change you, impact you 100 times over more than anything you give them. And that to me is I would do it again and again and again so I can say all the hard and it's gonna be this and it's gonna be that, but it is like the nitty gritty beautiful part of living the essence of those relationships and getting to see other people's perspectives and getting to walk alongside and change and grow and bond and attach and la laugh and cry and celebrate and it is 100% worth every single minute over and over and over and over and over again every time. [00:57:16] Speaker A: If you guys could see the zoom squares of each of us, like our eyes are getting red, our noses are getting red because we are saying things that mean something, something to us deep, deep down. I'm like getting teary as I'm listening to you all and I'm thinking, yeah, I think the thing I would add to that is, besides the Amen. Yes, yes. Is the is that every child deserves a safe adult. Kind of along the lines of what you guys have said. Every child deserves a safe adult. And you have come to this moment and you get to do the best that you can do. And it's not going to be flawless, but if you can hold the nuance of it, if you can hold the complexity, you've come to this moment and you get to offer what you have towards someone else's sense of safety. And you have what it takes. You have what it takes. We're thankful for you guys and thanks for hanging with us through the both ends of talking about this and we will see you next time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. We hope you enjoyed the episode. If you're interested in learning more, head to empoweredtoconnect.org for our library of resources. Thank you to Kyle Wright, who edits and engineers all of our audio, and Tad Jewett, the creator of our music. On behalf of everyone at etc, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Empowered to Connect podcast. In the meantime, let's hold on to hope together. [00:59:14] Speaker B: SA.